Basics of setting up fighting gear

[Kansas_Kraut]

Drop Legs blow period, if you can't have your secondary on your hip try your chest, same goes with your Mags they belong on your hip or chest.

Then there is really nothing worth carrying on a drop leg?

one of our corpsman carried narcs there

No, i'm no elite bearded door kicker but I learned on my own that a drop leg sucks. I was getting in and out of mraps a lot and my seat faced forward so the typical dropleg setup sucked ass. I had a Safariland holster and ended up cutting the top loops of if off with a pair of tin snips and made it ride up high just like davepal suggested. Only thing, in the 120+ degree heat with a nice elastic strap around your leg you get the funkballs in no time at all. Ended up emailing Safariland with my issue and they set me up with a belt adapter for my holster and I never looked back. Had I been a driver I would of went with something that rode even higher than that adapter.

One thing we always kept in mind with regards to our Tourniquets and our IFAKs was that whatever arm you intend on reaching it with you might not have when it comes time to use it.

When your moving around a lot and trying to do it quickly you don't want shit on your legs. The guys I was with didn't carry shit on their legs. Nothing. Zip. Zilch. Nada.


ETA

With your drop leg adjusted properly the top strap will be danger close to your ballsack. I agree with what has been said.

[Johnny Thujone]

I use a subleg rig on my left side for 3 extra mags.

I like it.

I have more than a couple miles humped, run, and fought with this setup, and it's never interfered with any of it.

[Beamish]

I was thinking of JT's set up when I asked. It seems like rifle mags or a dump pouch could still be functional.

[KevinB]

Marines seem to be the only ones still using subloads.

Admittedly they can make sense for some dedicated Urban DA's - but then your off in the moutains and you got this 2" raw band around your leg that starts to fester with afghan poo dust etc...

I'm less about lots of ammo these days, and more about breathing and remembering the marksmanship fundementals. That way you can ditch the subloads.

[Johnny Thujone]

Marines seem to be the only ones still using subloads.

Admittedly they can make sense for some dedicated Urban DA's - but then your off in the moutains and you got this 2" raw band around your leg that starts to fester with afghan poo dust etc...

I'm less about lots of ammo these days, and more about breathing and remembering the marksmanship fundementals. That way you can ditch the subloads.

I'm running a SpecOps subload rig with 3 BH single mag pouches. It distributes the weight all around the circumference of my leg, and 3 mags seems to be the perfect amount of weight to have pulling down on your belt. I've messed around with the 4 mag loads, and didn't want anything to do with that shit...

I've never done any altitude humping with this setup... but like i said, i've done more than a couple foot mobile ops that had nothing to do with the word "urban", and i haven't had any rashing or discomfort issues. I think we're just cut from different cloths.

[Ohso]

The basics of setting up fighting gear
Avoid putting any pouches above your rifle pouches if at all possible. It is common to see pistol mag pouches haphazardly placed about rifle pouches as just a, “place to go”. You do not want to make drawing your rifle magazines any harder than it needs to be. Sure, you might be able to do it the comfort of your bedroom but under stress everything will take far longer. If you are going to have any pouches above others, it is better to do to the gear on the right (reserve) side of your rig. Just ensure not to impede a the buttstock as you bring it to bear onto your shoulder.

I can't see how placing your pistol above your rifle mags and in the way of your sling is going to be better than a solid drop leg.

[HS8541]

I can't see how placing your pistol above your rifle mags and in the way of your sling is going to be better than a solid drop leg.

Dave let me get this one......

When doing ANY type of defensive pistol work being combat CQB, Concealed Carry Defensive shooting or competition shooting. Every quality course teaches the concept of a work space and muscle memory. You said you are a cert. NRA CCW instructor you very well should know this.

When engaging a target with a pistol and you run out of ammo to reload you bring the weapon back into the workspace. The workspace is directly infront of your face and slightly below the eye line. This provides the shooter two things 1. the ability to keep your eye on target and the area of engagement 2. the ability to see the pistol int he edge of your vision to help with reload or possible malfunction.

From this position you do all your work as in reload or checking the weapon to see if you need to find cover cause your shits all jammed up.

The shortest distance between two points is a straight line right?

Most people reload with their weakhand so logic states you would want your mags close to your weakhand so that would be from your hip(if you are right handed) on your left side up to your chest on your left side or weakside. So at this point having your mags on your dropleg is already not an option.

Muscle memory is or motor memory, is the concept that you train a movement to the point where it doesn't require you to think about it just happens. So when your Brain registers Empty that weak hand is already moving from the grip to the loaded mags on your weakside. To the spot where you have trained it to go Over and Over again. So for me and what I teach for the pistol the placement of your pistol mags on your weakside on your belt a few inches in front of your hip bone works for BOTH concealed carry and Overt Armor carry.

1 position 1 muscle memory. As for placing the pistol mags on the front of your Rifle mags on your carrier the placement is only a few inches away from the the original muscle memory therefore being a very minor adjustment and even closer to your workspace.

Now placing your pistol mags above your Rifle mags on your carrier does a couple things it can create an obstruction while removing said rifle mags and the draw on the pistol mags takes longer. Instead of being one fluid straight line like from the hip or the front of your Rifle mags, you must first draw the mag up out of the pouch then down below the mag well of the gun then back up into the gun.

I am not talking out my ass, this is from several high end schools along with several years of experience, which I have less of compared to KevinB, and Dave, while this just happens to be what I do for a living everyday

I hope all that made sense

[HS8541]

Kraut and JT

To me there isn't, I used to instruct in Mountain warfare and Deployed to Afghanistan and spent 90% of the time in the mountains. One patrol was all it took for me to toss the dropleg. And to this day I cannot stand to have anything on my legs because of it. Extra weight on your legs, the shit moves around to damn much, and it can rub the shit out of your leg.

A drop leg for something like a Medical gear where you will behind cover for the most part when using it isn't such bad idea. I have seen many medics use it that way. My team medic in Afghanistan did the same thing, but he also ditched it after the first foot patrol in the mountains.

As for a dump pouch, I have never used one, well that's not true I attempted to use one once and the instructor for the course I was in made me and all the others take it off because he said it taught the wrong thing when reloading. It taught retention over getting the gun in the fight.

My first combat patrol I carried 13 mags in, 12 on my chest and one in the M16A2. Added with all the other the weight was just to much. The first extended fire fight I was in I used 4 mags completely and a 5th as a tactical reload when it was overish. The first mag and a half went real fucking fast and then once in cover Slow aimed shots for the rest, which took over a hour. From that point on I and now if I wear a carrier I only carry 8 mags on my gear. For concealed carry I have 2 mags on my belt about 4 inches behind my hip.

[Ohso]

I hope all that made sense

Yep. Gotcha. Makes perfect sense. Reads straight out of the NRA PPOH Instructor guide. Not to mention any LCpl who's been to the pistol range knows how to reload up in front of your face where you keep an eye on threats as well as can still see your weapon.

Still doesn't even close to making the arguement for mounting your pistol ABOVE your rifle and pistol mags. In fact, you only help my arguement for why I DON'T mount my pistol on my chest. I have nothing mounted above my rifle mag pouches. And my pistol mag pouches are mounted to the outside of the rifle mag pouches (just like you and everyone else).

My arguement is in favor of the drop leg holster (specifically the HSGI version). I don't want anything above my rifle mags and a belt line holster is a no go with the chest rig. To me, the drop leg still makes the most sense. Only good arguements I've heard are the vehicle (in & out) and the rash / don't touch the step children stuff.

Do we need to go have a beer and draw this thing out on paper?

[HS8541]

Well I Mis-remembered your post I wrote it thinking about pistol mag pouches

I have mounted my pistol on my chest and I prefer it there instead of a dropleg. If i have to

The main reasons for mounting it there for me is when I am in a vehicle most of the time. Having it on your hip makes it almost impossible to get while a drop leg is also in the way. You can rotate it on top of your thigh which makes it easier to get to, but can get in the way of steering and can really fuck up a down driver situation.

On your chest makes drawing your pistol while in a vehicle a snap, now for the pistol draw from a standing position is easily one of the fastest draws out there and if placed right does not interfere with the sling or mag draw(but you are constantly flagging anyone to your left). If you have the luxury of wearing armor it is still recommended over a drop leg. the advantages are still better.

For those who are unable to mount it there the hip is still a far better place then any other

No offense but from what I have seen NRA courses although according to .gov they are the standard are mostly a bunch of ass served in a can. I have attended 2 CCW courses and a NRA range safety course. I threw up in my mouth every time. All three were from different instructors. The CCW courses were almost verbatim and taught by different people in different cities by different companies

HSGI i personally have never liked any of their gear, it all seems to bulky, and to heavy

[Ohso]

What holster do you use for the chest mount?

I don't really have an answer for your NRA experiences. Mine were really good. But I did them with another Marine and the only other people in the class were all LEO's. One of which was a retired FBI guy that had ran the Atlanta hostage team for awhile. We had a blast with that group. But I guess that is another story all together.

I would still recommend the CWP classes to anyone new to the conceal carry process. I think it really adds to the awareness of the dos and donts

[KevinB]

Ignore the caption I did it while in a net argument about what SBR was a decent system.
I used to run mags up on my support side. You can get really quick doing that, as it really shrinks your distance to reload. However... It blows dead goats as far as weak shoulder transitions with the long gun. Also if you doing the overt/covert switch a bunch you can really screw with your muscle memory.

I'm not a big fan of vest mounted pistols, as they love to entangle slings etc, but IF you vehilce mounted for the majority of your role it is convienient.

[HS8541]

KevinB you are the cool guy photo whore

I had a long write up but apparently it didn't post with pics and all but fuck it

Safariland with the black hawk molle mounti thinga ma jig, I was the driver so a rarely got out of the driver seat I always had it on my chest until I went fancy pants suit man


edited because LL will yell at me for poor spelling again

[xringmick]

KevinB you are the cool guy photo whore

He also has a cool headset thingy.

[HS8541]

KevinB you are the cool guy photo whore

He also has a cool headset thingy.

You know the Hat is actually required or else you may get the dreaded "Peltor Hair"

I will be GOD DAMNED if I mess up my mullet!

Bubblegum?

[KevinB]

As soon as I got a digital camera I became THE photo whore.
You need a hat, when you remove your helmet otherwise the hair is just ugly. Peltors really dick with yoru hair too as HS pointed out.

HS - I understand the desire to mount the pistol on the vest, but I really like using rifles and carbines, and dont like setting up my secondary when it can interfere with using the primary. Ack on the suit - life really is crazy.

[Sobchak Security]

Once again, I'm joining in kind of late in the game. So far it's been an excellent read and very thorough.

[Sobchak Security]

I chatted with Razorsedge about this topic the other night. I'm of the opinion (and this comes from hiking and shooting rabbits, as close to actual combat as I'll ever get) that your survival/camp/first aid gear should live in your ruck and your ruck should live at the campsite or in the vehicle while your fighting/shooting gear should be on a vest or chest rig.

Boating your vest down with survival crap just seems like you'll end up carrying too much dead weight that you can't ditch if you need to move in a hurry. After all, watch film and video of the guys fighting in the second world war, they fought with just an LBE or leather gear, even though they humped around these bigass lame rucks and tornisters full of their camp/survival gear.

Mileage varies, I'm a civilian with no pretenses of ever using his gear in a combat situation but rather sees the entirety of this hobby as preparation in the longshot event that something serious does happen and it may be needed for that role.

I'm not computer literate enough to quote multiple posts within the same post, but someone else touched on the subject of a basic survival and med kit weighing in at mere ounces. I'm of the same thinking. A basic pocket kit on your person (of each).

Recon taught that as you E & E, you tend to ditch gear/weight. That type of situation often benefits from carrying multiple layers/levels of survival gear, ranging from a large kit on your ruck to a medium kit on your armor/vest rig to a pocket-sized kit on your body.

Med kit works almost the same way. A basic setup of tourniquet and Israelis on your person at all times, with a larger kit in your ruck (or better yet, on your back for buddy aid).

My preference is for a 1-handed tourniquet located where either hand can get it in the event that either arm is in need of it.

[Sobchak Security]

Someone (and I can't find it now) posted about weight issues and suggested less gear/ammo. This is my chance to plug a very old Manual (1950) that changed my life while in the Corps. http://www.amazon.com/Soldiers-Load-Mob ... 0686310012

I refer to it now and again and still find it very prudent.

[MeanSteve]

Good call on the small medkit/trauma/blow out kit. I have a couple of old British field dressings (Falklands War vintage) in my box of bullshit that I can easily toss into my multi-purpose pouch.

Tomorrow afternoon, I'll post up some more pics of my rig as it stands. I think I'm happier ditching three AR mags in exchange for a mutli-purpose grab pouch. I honestly think that nine AR mags is way too damned many. Hell six is probably too many.

I'd still love to find a small pouch (taking up maybe 3x1 PALS) that can hold loose .22s.

[politenessman]

I'd still love to find a small pouch (taking up maybe 3x1 PALS) that can hold loose .22s.

Hello, have we met?
http://www.gunsaddles.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=50&product_id=59
What color do you want?

NET NANNY EDIT: I moved the other Gunsaddles product discussion posts to the Gunsaddle Thread Please continue there.

[DavePAL84]

Okay, I've gotten a couple of requests to show what I'm currently running so here goes:

First Line Gear
So, I always advocate having a separate belt for your first line gear. This is what you put on first and take off last, whenever possible. You can take a dump simply by taking off the belt and you can take off your armor without being unarmed.



Left to right on the belt:
-Medium Maxpedition roly-poly as a dump if needed
-Double synthetic pistol mag pouch
-Double nylon pistol mag pouch
-Suppressor pouch
-Blow-out kit (just for gunshot wounds--not a general med kit... more on this in a second) on Jone's Tactical tear-away panel
-HSGI drop-leg /w Peter's Custom Spada holster. Holds my G17 /w TLR-1
-Mag pouch holding a multi-tool on the HSGI drop

Firstly, although the blow-out kit appears to hinder the draw of the pistol, remember that the waist is an oval shape. It doesn't hinder the draw at all.

I keep the blow-out kit on the first-line gear because I'll always have it on (unless I get shot while taking a dump, which means it'll be nearby). The blow-out kit sits in a 5.11 medical pouch on a Jone's Tactical Tear-Away panel. The tear-away panel is great so that whoever is working on you can just rip the whole thing off instead of trying to work with the kit while it's still attached to you.

I keep a general medic-kit inside my bug-out bag. No bullshit band-aids in the blow-out kit. The blow out is for just for GSW's (I know I've said it before)

Ripped off and open:


Contents:


-Two Tourniquets
-Burn gel
-A shitload of gauze pads
-ACS chest seal
-Quickclot
-Latex gloves
-Hand sanitizer
-small ace bandage
-gauze
-gauze
-gazue
-gauze (anyone else see a trend?)

Second Line Gear

Now, depending on what weapons system I go with, I have separate plate carriers (AR & AK).

Here's my AR plate carrier setup


second view:


It's an HSGI Weesatch plate carrier. It sports internal pouches to hold up to 8 AR magazines and two internal admin/whatever pouches which radios and water bottles fit really well into. For my primary reloading, I have a triple-shingle on the left hand side (for a total of 11 mags). You can see some medical shears in the middle and on the right side I have a general BS pouch (holds maps/cellphone/pens/GPS/spare safety glasses/tobacco) and a smoke grenade pouch just to the right of it. I have a Source hydration bladder that runs along the back
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyF36M1mz-w"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyF36M1mz-w[/url]

Here's my AK plate carrier setup


Base is a Blackhawk STRIKE plate carrier. There are two sustainment pouches on either side (remember how I said that extreme left or right didn't matter?). Nalgene bottles etc fit well in these, also NVG's. On the left hand sustainment pouch I have a double-pistol mag pouch. This is not for primary reloading but to backfill the magazines on my belt. The AK pouches on the chest I absolutely despise. I'll be switching them out for (8) HSGI taco pouches in the very near future. This rig is really secondary/training as I don't plan to bug-out with an AK if I can avoid it.

Low-Pro Rig


Another view:


This is a Tactical Tailor single piece MAV. It sports (6) HSGI taco pouches, a triple mag pouch, and a sustainment pouch. Once again, the pistol magazines are for back-filling. What I like about this rig is that I don't need the drop-leg because no armored plates are involved. I use this rig as a low-pro rig and a competition rig. The HSGI taco pouches will hold anything from an AR mag to an AK mag to a Saiga-12 magazine and still offer good retention


Obviously, I would never carry such an assortment of magazines in a real situation. This picture serves to show just how versatile this pouch is.


Final Comments
I didn't just make this stuff up. All of this comes from many years of carrying heavy shit in combat situations Years ago, when I was in Iraq, I probably went through a dozen gear configurations. However, the basics that I outlined in this thread rang true.

Here's a pic of my gear in Iraq (I'm on the left)


It's rough but you can see that I have (3) 4-mag pouches on the left-hand side. I used a SAW pouch as a general admin pouch on the right side with my medical kit on the far-right. The pouch just above the SAW pouch held a camera and some other BS stuff I didn't use very much. Notice that there isn't shit above my magazine pouches to impede the draw of the magazines.

Also notice that I'm wearing a separate belt for my pistol. You can see the regular old riggers belt on my comrade to the right twisting from the load of a simple dump pouch on his left hip. This is one of the reasons to keep your shit on a separate belt.

Another pic (I'm on the right in this one--dig the burned out bus in Fallujah)


This is a pic where the pouches on the right are obscured by my rifle. You can see that there isn't anything of significance over my mag pouches--just some map pens and an AK bayonet used for prying (You wouldn't believe the shit I broke into with a simply bayonet used as a prying tool)

At the time, you may notice I was carrying 15 AR magazines on my person (12 on the vest, 2 in the gun (on a mag coupler) and the 15th on the buttstock). Once again you can see the separate belt (I didn't have a pistol in this pic because that POS M9 lost some springs and got sent back--this was a day before I got a captured BHP) for a dedicated dump pouch (I don't use those anymore--good to free up the legs) and a knife).

[FireMoth]

Got enough pens, ya fuckin' intel fag?

Kiss kiss.

[JollyRoger1900]

I HATED my drop leg... HATED.

I hated it mainly for the reasons brought up above, retention issues and it snagging on everything it came in contact with. Also had the problem of it making my riggers belt bend and sag.

As soon as I moved it onto my "bat belt", my LT made a new SOP regarding gear... Drop leg only. I was displeased.

So, a few months back I moved it way up on my leg... almost to a "low ride" holster. The guys at work make fun of me a ton... but they hit their gun off of the wall when going around a corner... I don't. As was stated in main post above, was a good idea. It also made retention not as much of an issue. I still had the problem with the belt sagging. I wasn't allowed to attack the leg drop to my bat belt, I had to have it on my riggers belt in accordance with the SOP. So, I started thinking and thinking...

Then it hit me... Suspenders! So, I went an bought "combat suspenders" and its been working very well. I just wear it under my second chance vest and my ABU blouse. So that is a way you can get rid of the belt sagging.

[Ohso]

...but they hit their gun off of the wall when going around a corner...

"This is my rifle, this is my gun. This is for shooting, this is for fun."

Then it hit me... Suspenders! So, I went an bought "combat suspenders" and its been working very well. I just wear it under my second chance vest and my ABU blouse. So that is a way you can get rid of the belt sagging.

Have you looked into the riggers belts by 5.11 or some of the other similar ones? They are made with a piece of kydex inside that keeps the belt rigid and secure around your waist. You still have to cinch it down a little, but it doesn't sag like a standard / thin riggers belt.